Here’s my personal stance - I’m a secular Israeli Jew, naturalized American citizen after randomly bumping into, then dating an American woman in the era when Hamas decided that blowing up multiple commuter buses in Tel Aviv would drive a wedge into the Oslo peace process (unfortunately, they were right), then followed her to California when she decided to return and apply for grad school. I grew up in a mixed city (Haifa) with a father who was fluent in Arabic. By mixed I mean Catholics, Muslims, Bahai, Druze, and Jews from all over the world. These different people had lived peacefully in the same neighborhoods and buildings since the very start. Unless someone is religious (and therefore have distinct clothing) you really can’t tell whether they’re Jewish or Arab at the beach, gym, bus, restaurant, soccer match. That’s Israel. “Apartheid” claims are a fantasy projection of those who HATE diversity and coexistence. Shocking, I know - how could kind progressives and the humanitarian far-left hate anyone, let alone Jews?! LOL. The ones I’ve met in the US are mostly frothing at the mouth racists and warmongers who get a boner for the terrorism and massacres of Hamas, then deny those ever happened or excuse them in the most disingenuous ways possible. For example, Sam Kriss lying that “pro Palestinian” protests in the UK aren’t rife with calls for genocide of Israelis, and full of vandalism against Jewish institutions, homes and business and physical violence against UK Jews.
BTW, pretty much all Israelis have a friend or family who are part Moroccan. My brother in law’s mom talks about The King (of Morocco) like old British ladies talk about The Queen.
It’s a general love for the royals. It’s pretty common with older Moroccan Jews. They just needed to witness how atrociously neighboring Algeria treated their Jews in comparison.
I want to linger on your last point "I don't like Jews (By which I mean, I don’t automatically like anyone just because they happen to be Jewish)" point. I am gay, and I have met MANY gays around the world. Gays, for obvious reasons, tend to enjoy hanging with other gays, and that's fine. But I sympathize with your above point because while just being gay gives me a 'common' thing to fraternize over: I am not going to like or dislike you because of identity. That's dumb. I care far more about how annoying you are when it comes to whining about things (like how "this cruise line has WAY TOO FEW saunas on it") than about your personal preferences on sex.
Judge people by their character, not their characteristics.
Thank you for writing this—I do happen to be a quasi-libertarian, so I sorta agree with almost all you’ve said. But I have enough normie Zionist Jew tendencies to put some daylight between us, and it’s good to hear from a thoughtful ally (I hate using that word but can’t find a better one) the conditions of his alliance.
In any case, I definitely think this is a valuable intellectual exercise, and am impressed you’ve done it.
My thanks are for your point of view expressed clearly, intelligently and in an entertaining manner. I may not agree with everything, but I am learning a new opinion of view that is informing my thinking. It takes a lot of work to not think tribally, but I will give it a try.
I am glad you brought up Ayn Rand. As a teenager in the US I loved her books. Later on, in university, I was told she was evil. I am going to read her again after the progressive bubble around me has been broken.
I have been living in Israel since I was 23 (1984). Upon graduation, I went to visit my family, who had moved to Israel and realized I had no money, no job and nowhere to live so I stayed. I was never interested in nationality, religion or tradition; until October 7th, especially after the reaction of the world. I have swung in the opposite direction, which is comfortable here. You have become a little inner voice warning me to stop and think.
Thanks! I hope I made it clear I don't necessarily fault those who seek comfort or protection within tribalism. It's good to be aware of it as a potentially noxious influence, but whether it's appropriate depends on the context.
Rand's fiction is very verbose and can be quite ponderous, even for those who enjoyed it (such as me!). Her essays are a much better vignette into her philosophy, but even then it might be better to read more contemporary explainers that can synthesize her context better.
> There is no corporeal manifestation of society at large, no singular entity with blossoming appendages wriggling out. Society is a fiction, a construct — a simple story we tell to summarize a complex and alienating world. When we say an orchestra performed beautifully, we’re simplifying a hundred distinct musicians — violinists, cellists, flautists, percussionists, even that one enthusiastic cowbell player — each making precise, individual contributions into one cohesive sound. We talk about the ensemble as a tangible unit because it’s easier, but in reality only individuals act. So groups are fictions, albeit very useful fictions! Unavoidably, whenever we discuss any group’s actions, we are always glossing over the discrete actions of individual men and women. And that makes sense, because only individuals can make decisions, and only individuals can hold culpability for those decisions.
Eh, individuals are also fictions. You can be broken down fully into the movements of your individual cells and fluids, each with their own complex environments and behaviors quite different from the others. Talking about the actions of a cohesive group of people seems no more fictional to me than the actions of a cohesive group of cells.
Sure, but when you go on to say "I think all religions are delusions — but we already established that some delusions are more useful than others" you seem to be making a much stronger claim than that. I think "treating a society as a coherent unit" is vastly closer to "treating a human as a coherent unit" than it is to believing the bible is true.
This was a really interesting read, and it's always nice to see someone principled and articulate laying out why they support Israel despite not having tribal reasons to do so (unless lovers of freedom and human flourishing can be considered a tribe). Thanks for writing.
I mean, I find all your contra points to be valid and also not matter much in practice (if each and every Israeli had the exact same value system as you would the conflict be demonstrably different? I don’t think so.)
So… I’m sorry man. You’re captured. The Jews have captured you 😝 send help!!
Individuals have values. When those values are aggregated at the group/societal level, we call it culture.
Not all cultures are equal: just choose your desired metric (GDP per capita, women's rights, etc.) and witness the huge variation across countries.
The difference in culture between successful, liberal Israel and its autocratic, jihadi neighbors could not be more stark, despite the close physical proximity. I think that breaks a lot of people's brains.
Championing successful cultures that produce good outcomes (human flourishing) over repressive/destructive cultures is a winning argument, without getting into loaded terms like "ethnostate" or "Zionism".
As a non-Zionist Israeli patriot, I very much appreciate this perspective. My love for the country results from my connection to family and friends there and my connection to its culture, not from some silly idea that it's the asylum for world jewry. Honestly, I'd rather not share a country with American Jews, neither in the middle east nor in America
Hello! Another one of your secular Jewish Zionist fans here.
Logic is increasingly absent among Americans without any philosophical or legal background. Nowhere is it more glaring than in Gaza activism.
The rationale behind a held belief is the most important part. If we don’t know WHY a belief is held, it’s impossible to assess its validity. A law without a widely-accepted rationale looks more like a whim.
All this is to say - I understand and accept your rationale behind your Zionism (for lack of a better label). I also understand that support could be lost if Israel fully abandons its own values in prosecuting the war. Ethnic cleansing or actual genocide come to mind. I pray (I don’t actually pray, but) that Israel stops short of that, because those would be redlines for me as well.
"Group affiliations can matter to me, but only when they emerge from shared individual experiences or values"..OMG thank you so much! Just happened to find you on the night our dear asshole Pres decided to go rogue and get involved in bombing Iran! Thank you for appreciating the humanity and nuance.
as you might recall I reeeeeeeeeeallly hate Zionism but your pro-zionist arguments are at least weird enough (the strangest I've heard) to be mildly interesting.
most zionists are just zionists, by which I mean they are zionists REGARDLESS of whether zionism is actually compatible with their other beliefs. The zionism exists regardless of what else they believe because there's no attempt at systemic thought.
for you, your zionism follows logically and rationally from a bunch of other ideas (that I mostly deeply disagree with) to the point where it doesn't even upset me because it's so obviously a logical outgrowth of other ideas that you have.
In my official capacity as a random commenter, i'm going to bestow you with the official title of "least annoying Zionist" congrats on your award.
Hilarious @Bag of Numerous Geese. And here i am wondering how anti-zionist progressives can possibly manage to square their supposed values and beliefs with chanting "by any means necessary" "globalize the intafada" "from the river to the sea" and/or supporting for Iran (who rape and hang women for showing too much hair), Houtis (who are actual fucking slavers), and Hamas (who strangle and throw homosexuals off roofs) and other religio-fascist movements who seek to create a worldwide caliphate.
Seems to me most anti-zionists are just anti-zionists.
Fucking Nostradamus over there indeed.
Here’s my personal stance - I’m a secular Israeli Jew, naturalized American citizen after randomly bumping into, then dating an American woman in the era when Hamas decided that blowing up multiple commuter buses in Tel Aviv would drive a wedge into the Oslo peace process (unfortunately, they were right), then followed her to California when she decided to return and apply for grad school. I grew up in a mixed city (Haifa) with a father who was fluent in Arabic. By mixed I mean Catholics, Muslims, Bahai, Druze, and Jews from all over the world. These different people had lived peacefully in the same neighborhoods and buildings since the very start. Unless someone is religious (and therefore have distinct clothing) you really can’t tell whether they’re Jewish or Arab at the beach, gym, bus, restaurant, soccer match. That’s Israel. “Apartheid” claims are a fantasy projection of those who HATE diversity and coexistence. Shocking, I know - how could kind progressives and the humanitarian far-left hate anyone, let alone Jews?! LOL. The ones I’ve met in the US are mostly frothing at the mouth racists and warmongers who get a boner for the terrorism and massacres of Hamas, then deny those ever happened or excuse them in the most disingenuous ways possible. For example, Sam Kriss lying that “pro Palestinian” protests in the UK aren’t rife with calls for genocide of Israelis, and full of vandalism against Jewish institutions, homes and business and physical violence against UK Jews.
BTW, pretty much all Israelis have a friend or family who are part Moroccan. My brother in law’s mom talks about The King (of Morocco) like old British ladies talk about The Queen.
Is she talking about Hassan II or the current king?
It’s a general love for the royals. It’s pretty common with older Moroccan Jews. They just needed to witness how atrociously neighboring Algeria treated their Jews in comparison.
Ahahaha. I'm only about passive income loss via bulk orders of Costco hotdogs.
I want to linger on your last point "I don't like Jews (By which I mean, I don’t automatically like anyone just because they happen to be Jewish)" point. I am gay, and I have met MANY gays around the world. Gays, for obvious reasons, tend to enjoy hanging with other gays, and that's fine. But I sympathize with your above point because while just being gay gives me a 'common' thing to fraternize over: I am not going to like or dislike you because of identity. That's dumb. I care far more about how annoying you are when it comes to whining about things (like how "this cruise line has WAY TOO FEW saunas on it") than about your personal preferences on sex.
Judge people by their character, not their characteristics.
I had a podcast episode a while back where we discussed the oddity of "gay solidarity":
https://thebaileypodcast.substack.com/p/e031-we-say-gay
LOL
Thank you for writing this—I do happen to be a quasi-libertarian, so I sorta agree with almost all you’ve said. But I have enough normie Zionist Jew tendencies to put some daylight between us, and it’s good to hear from a thoughtful ally (I hate using that word but can’t find a better one) the conditions of his alliance.
In any case, I definitely think this is a valuable intellectual exercise, and am impressed you’ve done it.
My thanks are for your point of view expressed clearly, intelligently and in an entertaining manner. I may not agree with everything, but I am learning a new opinion of view that is informing my thinking. It takes a lot of work to not think tribally, but I will give it a try.
I am glad you brought up Ayn Rand. As a teenager in the US I loved her books. Later on, in university, I was told she was evil. I am going to read her again after the progressive bubble around me has been broken.
I have been living in Israel since I was 23 (1984). Upon graduation, I went to visit my family, who had moved to Israel and realized I had no money, no job and nowhere to live so I stayed. I was never interested in nationality, religion or tradition; until October 7th, especially after the reaction of the world. I have swung in the opposite direction, which is comfortable here. You have become a little inner voice warning me to stop and think.
Thanks! I hope I made it clear I don't necessarily fault those who seek comfort or protection within tribalism. It's good to be aware of it as a potentially noxious influence, but whether it's appropriate depends on the context.
Rand's fiction is very verbose and can be quite ponderous, even for those who enjoyed it (such as me!). Her essays are a much better vignette into her philosophy, but even then it might be better to read more contemporary explainers that can synthesize her context better.
> There is no corporeal manifestation of society at large, no singular entity with blossoming appendages wriggling out. Society is a fiction, a construct — a simple story we tell to summarize a complex and alienating world. When we say an orchestra performed beautifully, we’re simplifying a hundred distinct musicians — violinists, cellists, flautists, percussionists, even that one enthusiastic cowbell player — each making precise, individual contributions into one cohesive sound. We talk about the ensemble as a tangible unit because it’s easier, but in reality only individuals act. So groups are fictions, albeit very useful fictions! Unavoidably, whenever we discuss any group’s actions, we are always glossing over the discrete actions of individual men and women. And that makes sense, because only individuals can make decisions, and only individuals can hold culpability for those decisions.
Eh, individuals are also fictions. You can be broken down fully into the movements of your individual cells and fluids, each with their own complex environments and behaviors quite different from the others. Talking about the actions of a cohesive group of people seems no more fictional to me than the actions of a cohesive group of cells.
Some fictions are more fictitious than others.
Sure, but when you go on to say "I think all religions are delusions — but we already established that some delusions are more useful than others" you seem to be making a much stronger claim than that. I think "treating a society as a coherent unit" is vastly closer to "treating a human as a coherent unit" than it is to believing the bible is true.
This was a really interesting read, and it's always nice to see someone principled and articulate laying out why they support Israel despite not having tribal reasons to do so (unless lovers of freedom and human flourishing can be considered a tribe). Thanks for writing.
I mean, I find all your contra points to be valid and also not matter much in practice (if each and every Israeli had the exact same value system as you would the conflict be demonstrably different? I don’t think so.)
So… I’m sorry man. You’re captured. The Jews have captured you 😝 send help!!
Noooooo I tried so hard!
Individuals have values. When those values are aggregated at the group/societal level, we call it culture.
Not all cultures are equal: just choose your desired metric (GDP per capita, women's rights, etc.) and witness the huge variation across countries.
The difference in culture between successful, liberal Israel and its autocratic, jihadi neighbors could not be more stark, despite the close physical proximity. I think that breaks a lot of people's brains.
Championing successful cultures that produce good outcomes (human flourishing) over repressive/destructive cultures is a winning argument, without getting into loaded terms like "ethnostate" or "Zionism".
Oh no! I think I might like you, Yassine. OMG.
join the club 😎
This is why I, an old married white guy, keep coming back. I had forgotten MT’s statement, but absolutely agree. Keep up the good work.
As a non-Zionist Israeli patriot, I very much appreciate this perspective. My love for the country results from my connection to family and friends there and my connection to its culture, not from some silly idea that it's the asylum for world jewry. Honestly, I'd rather not share a country with American Jews, neither in the middle east nor in America
I appreciate your eloquence and thoughtfulness
Zionist Transgender Nebraskan Jew here.
Love your work.
I'm glad you're here :)
Hello! Another one of your secular Jewish Zionist fans here.
Logic is increasingly absent among Americans without any philosophical or legal background. Nowhere is it more glaring than in Gaza activism.
The rationale behind a held belief is the most important part. If we don’t know WHY a belief is held, it’s impossible to assess its validity. A law without a widely-accepted rationale looks more like a whim.
All this is to say - I understand and accept your rationale behind your Zionism (for lack of a better label). I also understand that support could be lost if Israel fully abandons its own values in prosecuting the war. Ethnic cleansing or actual genocide come to mind. I pray (I don’t actually pray, but) that Israel stops short of that, because those would be redlines for me as well.
"Group affiliations can matter to me, but only when they emerge from shared individual experiences or values"..OMG thank you so much! Just happened to find you on the night our dear asshole Pres decided to go rogue and get involved in bombing Iran! Thank you for appreciating the humanity and nuance.
as you might recall I reeeeeeeeeeallly hate Zionism but your pro-zionist arguments are at least weird enough (the strangest I've heard) to be mildly interesting.
most zionists are just zionists, by which I mean they are zionists REGARDLESS of whether zionism is actually compatible with their other beliefs. The zionism exists regardless of what else they believe because there's no attempt at systemic thought.
for you, your zionism follows logically and rationally from a bunch of other ideas (that I mostly deeply disagree with) to the point where it doesn't even upset me because it's so obviously a logical outgrowth of other ideas that you have.
In my official capacity as a random commenter, i'm going to bestow you with the official title of "least annoying Zionist" congrats on your award.
I am honored by your praise! I have genuinely appreciate the comments and pushback you've left.
Hilarious @Bag of Numerous Geese. And here i am wondering how anti-zionist progressives can possibly manage to square their supposed values and beliefs with chanting "by any means necessary" "globalize the intafada" "from the river to the sea" and/or supporting for Iran (who rape and hang women for showing too much hair), Houtis (who are actual fucking slavers), and Hamas (who strangle and throw homosexuals off roofs) and other religio-fascist movements who seek to create a worldwide caliphate.
Seems to me most anti-zionists are just anti-zionists.